Re: [Sawfish] Updated list of themes

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Am 14.06.2011 12:32, schrieb Eric P. Mangold:
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 04:48, Christopher Roy Bratusek
<nano@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
Am 14.06.2011 11:01, schrieb Eric P. Mangold:
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 01:25, Christopher Roy Bratusek
<nano@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>    wrote:
Am 14.06.2011 07:59, schrieb Eric P. Mangold:
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 00:22, Christopher Roy Bratusek
<nano@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>      wrote:
Am 14.06.2011 06:06, schrieb Eric P. Mangold:
Sounds mostly good...

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 14:44, Christopher Roy Bratusek
<nano@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>        wrote:
At the end... the list of themes shipped with Sawfish:

StyleTab [default]
When did Crux lose the default position? To my mind, a sawfish without
a Crux default ain't no sawfish at all...
StyleTab became default in 1.8.0RC. No one complained (neither at the
proposal in Oct 10).
Guess I missed that.

I just tried StyleTab, and I'll just be honest - it's hideous. I can't
imagine black going well with any default desktop themes out there. I
don't see anywhere to configure the colors, but guess that is normal.

Plus there are just a mess of buttons taking the the majority of the
horizontal titlebar space of a full-screen window on my netbook.

And I have no clue what most of these buttons do, and since there are
not tooltips (a sawfish limitation? or?), I may never know what some
of them are supposed to do.

I guess having a tab-capable theme is a good default.

Not sure how useful this rant is... or what, if any, actionable items
I would suggest...

Leaving tab support aside, who prefers the aesthetic appeal of
StyleTab over Crux?

Black goes well with any bright default-theme and most distributions use
bright theme. Ubuntu is basically the only of the major distributions
doesn't use one.
I think black is a bad default color. You will never see Windows use
black. You will never see Mac OS X use black. And for that matter you
will never see a mainstream Linux distro ship a default desktop with
all-black window decorations. There is just no way.

Well, there are many popular black WM-themes outwhere, not just for SF, but
also for MetaCity, Compiz&  Co. Of course none of them is the default, but
they have huge download-numbers.

Not to offend you, but I don't care about Windows and OS X. AFAIK Xubuntu
and Mint ship dark themes. (OK, none of those two is really relevant).
I don't care about these OS's either - the point was simply that these
folks have graphic designers and UI folks working for them, and it's
not conceivable to me that they would give approval to a black-centric

They do, but the folks at MS change their mind after each hype, the guys at Apple are more serious in this regard.

Also Crux with it's Blue/DarkGrey won't match all default
themes, too.
Yes, a colorful theme with some blue and gray may not match the user's
Gnome/desktop theme, but at least it isn't going to be an eye sore
straight off the bat.

Hmm... I wouldn't say black is an eyesore, green or yellow would be way
Perhaps I chose my words too strongly. The black theme has grow on me
just a little bit in a last few hours using it. However, having not
seen it before, and wanting to check out this cool new default theme,
I can't forget the feeling of being utterly repulsed when I first
switched it on. I wouldn't want a new user to have that feeling - and
ignore all of the wonderful merits of sawfish.

Though `goes well' depends on whether you like contrasts or
not. Crux + Bright theme = low contrast / StyleTab::Dark + Bright theme =
high contrast.
Fine that it's configurable - I'm just worried about the default
experience of new sawfish users.

Hmm... we could make StyleTab::Silver the default.
Or add another sub-style?
I think the Silver is quite nice, and I wouldn't be upset about it
being the default.

OTOH, it's really hard to go wrong with a Bluish theme, but someone
would have to work one up.

Yes, blue is always good... maybe I'll ask fuchur for some decente blueish variant
(fuchur = StyleTab author)

StyleTab is pretty configurable. You can change all the buttons to your
need, you can even change the position of the titlebar. Additionally
StyleTab bundles several themes, you can switch from StyleTabs settings.

Tooltips is a Sawfish setting (Appearance>    Tooltips), regardless of
Yep, just found that. Never needed to use that setting before.

However, the tooltips seem to basically be an introspective Lisp dump,
and hardly suitable for a novice/new user to make sense of.
Would it be possible for a theme to ship custom, user-friendly tooltip
text, and have it be enabled by default? Of course, this would
introduce the problem of having to translate all those texts. Which
may make it a lot more work than it's worth...

The problem is, that we practically don't have any translators (gnome-i18n isn't an option anymore, we switched away from GNOME, though I'll still have to place a mail for them, so that they know -- will do this, after switch is complete (bugtracker on Tuxfamily not yet ready)).

One thing you're right is the enormous amount of buttons to begin with.
that's on my list of TODO for theming-1.9 branch.

Personally I and the author atleast do prefer StyleTab aesthetic appeal
Crux. Though taste isn't a good thing to discuss about, isn't it?
We don't have to discuss taste - but the default theme IS important.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but it shouldn't be awful - and a
pure-black theme, in this context, is awful imho. I don't think you
could find a graphic designer that disagrees with me.

StyleTab became default as it showcases both Tabs and Title-Position (in
latter regard the only theme outwhere), it's flexible and offers dark and
bright styles.
StyleTab does seem to be quite nice, in terms of configurability and
technical merit - and I don't want to take anything away from the hard
work that has gone in to it, but that said, I really don't think, in
its current form, that it is suitable for a new user.

This does raise an interesting question, however - if the user is
running under Gnome, is it possible to get style/color hints from the
environment somehow?
Not for GNOME, but for GTK+, Crux does that, but the result would be awfull
for StyleTab.
Still that's sub-optimal, as it won't match someone's color-scheme who's
using KDE.
Ah, I had read reports with mixed results about running sawfish under
KDE - I didn't know it was a really viable option.

I may actually want to start doing that... :)

Several bugs with KDE have been fixed, some on Sawfish side, some as a side-effect of changes in KDE4. Atleast Timo Korvola and I use Sawfish with KDE4 and it's not a bad choice. Especially compared to GNOME3 ;)

Recently only two problems remained for me: focus issues with Konquerors Adblocker (but I'm using Iceweasel anymays) and partial strangeness with notification-popups from plasma.



If not, can we at least talk about changing the default color to
something more neutral?

+1 on StyleTab::Silver, unless someone has a better idea, or wants to
whip up a StyleTab::Blue.


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