Re: Maybe Leaving slitaz

[Brenton Edgar Scott <trixarian@xxxxxxxxx>]

Michael Moroni <michael.moroni@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I think Trixar_za should leave (every) project: no one can talk that
> way. *Vulgar, arrogant and snooty people should not take part to any
> community.* I don't care if you made some errors. No one died.
> - MM

Yes, Michael, I'm the bad one. Oh, maybe I should post what Christopher
has been saying the last while. 

Now for fairness sake my side and please note those with timestamps
at the end is while I was offline (and my BNC kept logs for me):

First his comments on the forums:
http://forum.slitaz.org/topic/nimrod-the-great/page/3#post-12200

What he said after or during this posting:
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] hey everyone [00:35:39]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [circun] hi all [01:42:24]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [circun] anybody is there? [01:44:43]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [circun] :S [01:47:12]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] Trix[a]r_za: are you there? [03:38:23]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] i don't want nimrod used for anything in tazpkg/tazpanel or anything else [03:38:47]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] hey claudine1 [03:53:21]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] hi godane :) [03:53:53]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] i'm reading about there being a rewrite of tazpkg in nimrod [03:54:29]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] i only used slitaz cause most of it was in shell code [03:54:54]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] yeah, i read something related to it... Guess Brenton could explain some more what's happening [03:55:21]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [Alia] 0 to 4 [03:55:22]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] something about performance... Seems interesting, but if the idea is using a compiled language, why not using C, since there are some other tools on slitaz (tazweb) written on C, and it's a stablished language? [03:58:50]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [Alia] Not [03:58:51]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] some new code: http://hg.slitaz.org/slitaz-forge/rev/d35926c24766 [04:08:14]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [godane] i some how fixed syntex_highlight function [04:08:54]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] http://hg.slitaz.org/slitaz-forge/rev/d35926c24766 [04:09:13]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] ops [04:09:18]
Jul 17 11:11:49 [claudinei] tried to copy that link, sorry [04:09:27]

When we finally did talk:
Jul 18 18:07:18 [godane] hey Trixar_za
Jul 18 18:12:28 [godane] ok why are you pissed off with me?
Jul 18 18:12:55 [godane] i readed your forum post
Jul 18 18:14:27 [Trixar_za] Annoyed more like it
Jul 18 18:14:48 [godane] i'm not a python or perl guy
Jul 18 18:15:08 [godane] so i will not be able to code anything in nimrod
Jul 18 18:15:25 [godane] also is there a bash to nimrod converter
Jul 18 18:15:54 [Trixar_za] Have you actually tried? It's not exactly pythonish. It does some of the things python does wrong better.
Jul 18 18:16:20 [Trixar_za] For example I like how it deal with module inheritance
Jul 18 18:16:26 [Alia] Hello, lexeii, thank you like me?
Jul 18 18:16:46 [godane] i'm more annoyed of binaries in hg repos
Jul 18 18:17:01 [godane] i want the repos history to say small
Jul 18 18:17:06 [godane] *stay
Jul 18 18:17:14 [Trixar_za] We won't be including binaries. It will have the loose nimrod code. As in text files.
Jul 18 18:17:53 [Trixar_za] The downside is that we need to actually write the package for it so we can cook nimrod packages
Jul 18 18:18:04 [Trixar_za] It's only other requirement is gcc
Jul 18 18:18:11 [godane] i can do that
Jul 18 18:18:56 [godane] i still prefer we don't use nimrod
Jul 18 18:19:02 [Trixar_za] A converter can probably be written. Nimrod already includes a pascal and C converter
Jul 18 18:19:03 [godane] i don't care how fast it is
Jul 18 18:20:00 [godane] we have enough developers just having trouble staying in slitaz as is
Jul 18 18:20:32 [godane] adding another programming language may just alienate developers
Jul 18 18:21:18 [Trixar_za] That's because of inter-conflicts. You and I have equally strong personalities and they're bound to clash at some point. But I doubt you'll drop out if something doesn't go your way and neither will I. We will both carry on regardless and do it our own way.
Jul 18 18:22:10 [Trixar_za] It's just another option, godane, and as for now, it's not a replacement for our current system.
Jul 18 18:22:12 [godane] and i don't know if Aleksej will just be gone in a year we have half baked nimrod code that most of the developers don't understand
Jul 18 18:23:07 [Trixar_za] Well, lexeii has been around pretty long. I just don't think he's always been active
Jul 18 18:23:44 [Trixar_za] And I'll understand it, mostly because I had a hand in it
Jul 18 18:23:47 [sh4rm4] nimrod? whatever it is, it sounds exotic...
Jul 18 18:24:02 [Trixar_za] http://nimrod-code.org/
Jul 18 18:24:14 ---» kristian-aalborg (~kristian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has Joined #slitaz
Jul 18 18:24:42 [Trixar_za] Anyway, pankso already wants to write replacement tools in vala/genie
Jul 18 18:24:54 [Trixar_za] Mostly for the graphical boxes anyway
Jul 18 18:25:44 [godane] just remember i came to slitaz cause it was shell script
Jul 18 18:25:47 [sh4rm4] vala? that depends on the entire glib/gio/gobject crap
Jul 18 18:26:23 [Trixar_za] Yes, I know sh4rm4. C programs also needs dependencies and their headers to be compiled.
Jul 18 18:26:48 [sh4rm4] not always
Jul 18 18:27:04 [sh4rm4] there are tons of C programs without any dependencies
Jul 18 18:27:05 [Trixar_za] Nimrod, wraps those headers internally, so you don't need headers to have access to the dependency
Jul 18 18:27:18 [Trixar_za] It also generates C code that it compiles with gcc
Jul 18 18:27:24 [sh4rm4] if i need 10+ packages to get a system bootstrapped i consider it broken
Jul 18 18:27:26 [Trixar_za] With gcc being it's only true requirement
Jul 18 18:28:14 [Trixar_za] That's why I like Nimrod. It's bootstrapped and generates stand-alone binaries
Jul 18 18:28:33 [Trixar_za] You can also rewrite it's function IN Nimrod
Jul 18 18:28:47 [Trixar_za] Like I made print an alias for echo
Jul 18 18:28:51 [sh4rm4] i like luajit because its as fast as C and as simple as basic
Jul 18 18:28:53 [Alia] Not a replacement for our current system
Jul 18 18:29:07 [sh4rm4] still i write my packages in posix sh to be most portable
Jul 18 18:29:44 [godane] i prefer we just fix that bash code
Jul 18 18:29:49 [Alia] Baked nimrod code that it compiles with gcc
Jul 18 18:30:50 [Trixar_za] That's why I'll carry on regardless. We can have both and the user can decide which to use.
Jul 18 18:32:03 [godane] just remember if developers can't just jump into nimrod like with bash you failed
Jul 18 18:32:21 [godane] i mean new developers
Jul 18 18:32:26 [Alia] If developers can't just jump into nimrod like with bash you failed
Jul 18 18:33:34 [Trixar_za] Well, Alekej picked it up faster than I did and he wrote a large number of his stuff in Ash or JavaScript
Jul 18 18:33:37 [godane] i also don't like binary code used for websites and script-like stuff
Jul 18 18:34:40 [Trixar_za] The current nimrod code isn't replacing the tazpanel code, it's just speeding up various listing options
Jul 18 18:34:59 «--- Gloomy (~Gloomy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
Jul 18 18:35:02 [Trixar_za] Although it can be used for a Webserver
Jul 18 18:35:29 [Trixar_za] http://forum.nimrod-code.org/ being an example
Jul 18 18:36:29 [sh4rm4] nimrod certainly looks cool
Jul 18 18:36:45 [sh4rm4] but that doesnt mean you should use it to replace working simple tools
Jul 18 18:38:10 [Trixar_za] At the moment it's just a suggestion with minor speed improvements within Tazpanel
Jul 18 18:38:39 [Trixar_za] If we get as far as creating an alternative to tazpkg is still to be seen
Jul 18 18:39:35 [Trixar_za] We'll still probably call shell events internally
Jul 18 18:39:43 [Trixar_za] Like wget
Jul 18 18:44:33 [Trixar_za] Mind you, there is a curl wrapper included with Nimrod
Jul 18 18:45:15 [sh4rm4] and where is the speed gain when you rely on executing external commands anyway ?
Jul 18 18:45:18 [godane] the syntexing is going to drive me nuts with nimrod
Jul 18 18:45:19 [Alia] Ack
Jul 18 18:45:36 [godane] stuff like this: var lit = url.replacef(re"(http://)*(www.)*([^/]+)(.*$)", "<span>$1$2</span>$3<span>$4</span>")
Jul 18 18:46:29 [godane] this is why i have zero support of nimrod
Jul 18 18:48:15 [Trixar_za] You could also use re("")
Jul 18 18:48:16 [Trixar_za] :P
Jul 18 18:49:03 [Trixar_za] Also can't you read regular expression? Oo
Jul 18 18:49:09 [Alia] So you don't need headers to have access
Jul 18 18:49:37 [godane] full code came from here: http://hg.slitaz.org/nim-tools/rev/c5c91502cc60
Jul 18 18:49:51 [Trixar_za] Anyway, the Nimrod devs actually recommend the use of pegs
Jul 18 18:50:07 [godane] if he pushes any nimrod code in other projects i will reverse it
Jul 18 18:50:31 [Trixar_za] Do that and I'll tell pankso
Jul 18 18:50:49 [godane] pankso is never around these days
Jul 18 18:50:54 [Alia] Other requirement is gcc
Jul 18 18:51:00 [Trixar_za] !shutup
Jul 18 18:51:01 [Alia] I'll be quiet :-(
Jul 18 18:51:28 [godane] i don't see him in even mailing list anymore
Jul 18 18:52:07 [Trixar_za] Anyway, he probably won't be pushing anything until it's tested
Jul 18 18:52:36 [Trixar_za] Why you're being a dick about it now, while it doesn't matter and without actually TRYING to learn Nimrod is beyond me.
Jul 18 18:52:39 [godane] i will look to see how to make the bash code in tazpanel faster
Jul 18 18:53:01 [Trixar_za] I doubt it. It's inherently slow using grep or sed insertion
Jul 18 18:53:23 [godane] i don't want what was bash code to be nimrod
Jul 18 18:53:24 [sh4rm4] slower than the 100 ms for http connections ?
Jul 18 18:53:44 [godane] cause i need to compile it
Jul 18 18:54:28 [sh4rm4] btw grep and sed are amongst the fastest unix tools
Jul 18 18:54:50 [sh4rm4] and fastest regex engines
Jul 18 18:55:19 [Trixar_za] We still rely on a multi-binary. What we use isn't even pure Bash!
Jul 18 18:55:24 [sh4rm4] so the only thing you can save there are the few nanoseconds for exec'ing another program
Jul 18 18:56:16 [Trixar_za] Well, processing the list of 3400 packages, it cuts the time to 1/5 that of the shell script
Jul 18 18:56:38 [Trixar_za] And a slow graphical package manager has been a complaint since SliTaz 3
Jul 18 18:58:30 [sh4rm4] have you measured this ? or is it just your expectation ?
Jul 18 18:59:11 [Trixar_za] http://forum.slitaz.org/topic/nimrod-the-great
Jul 18 18:59:24 [Trixar_za] And I tested it on my own system and it's indeed faster
Jul 18 18:59:26 [sh4rm4] maybe you ran the bash test first and that way the files accessed got cached in the kernel
Jul 18 18:59:34 ---» LordDVG (~LordDVG@unaffiliated/lorddvg) has Joined #slitaz
Jul 18 18:59:46 [Trixar_za] It displays on my system in about 12 seconds compared to the 73 seconds it took the bash script
Jul 18 19:00:08 [Trixar_za] It gets generated on the fly
Jul 18 19:00:18 [Trixar_za] So it's not about cacheing at all
Jul 18 19:03:04 [godane] i will be back later
Jul 18 19:03:11 «--- godane (~tux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
has Quit (Quit: Leaving.)

Later while I was offline and before the latter incident he pasted:
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] i just clicked my-packages section in tazpanel [00:14:00]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] :) [00:14:00]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] its not slow [00:14:04]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] it was fully list in about 1 second [00:14:26]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] lol nice [00:14:35]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] i don't want nimrod in tazpanel or any other tools [00:14:53]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] its not KISS to me [00:15:03]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] hmph [00:15:09]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] i think its relitivly KISS [00:15:27]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] or at least small/optimized [00:15:39]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] i prefer non binary scripts [00:15:49]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] only cause i think pankso will screw it up and only give the binary at some point [00:16:09]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] eh [00:16:09]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] ahh [00:16:16]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] i have seen to may things just kept in the dark about in order to make slitaz-tank [00:16:45]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [ccssnet] im organizing my arm toolchains folder [00:16:47]
Jul 19 10:13:17 [godane] like how chroot had everything installed
[00:16:59]

These logs are unaltered and I intentionally left everything as it is.
godane berated Alekej, pankso and me. He also went out on a rampage to
make sure that Nimrod does not get included. Up to that point Nimrod's
implementation was an idea, created for users. We weren't even sure if
we would be implementing it. Yet godane attacked this idea and even
treated to vandalize any change he did not approve us.

I admit it. I'm an asshole. But so is he.

--- Brenton Edgar Scott (Trixar_za)

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