[tablatures] Fwd: guitar tab feature request

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To: tablatures@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [tablatures] Fwd: guitar tab feature request
From: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 12:13:13 +0200
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For archival purposes, I am forwarding to the tablatures list some
previous discussions that may have taken place privately or on the
LilyPond-user mailing list.

- Valentin



Forwarded conversation
Subject: guitar tab feature request
------------------------

From: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/13
To: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Anyone who would like to be involved in documenting/discussing
features missing from LilyPond's guitar tab support, please send me an
off-list email at the following address:

dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

When we have a list of around 10-15 specific items, we can then
prioritize and start to talk about sponsorship of features and then
send a proposal to -devel.

Thanks,

Dave


_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@xxxxxxx
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

----------
From: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/13
To: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Thanks for your initiative!

I forwarded this message to the LAU mailinglist and also posted messages here:

http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/rd.php/message_boards/forum_posts.do?wlang=en&tid=1039&fid=6
http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=905

Hope you don't mind ;)

Kind regards,

\r
----------
From: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/13
To: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


The more, the merrier.

Dave
----------
From: David Raleigh Arnold <dra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/13
To: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


The more features are added, the harder it is to get rid of them.
Perhaps a \plaintab command?

All I ever use with tab is lines and numbers. All of the rest is
on the music staff above. To me, and to many others, tab is merely
an orderly way to present part of the fingering information. Fret
and string and that's it. That is one of the few things that Passport
"Encore" did right. That presentation is more serious, and as a default
it would make LilyPond seem even less of a toy.

When the music is in more than one part another notes block has
to be made reducing all notes on the staff to a single voice. Most
banjo music is published with the notation staff having one voice,
which makes it almost useless. It would be a serious help if lilypond
made that extra typing unnecessary by lining up all the notes in all
the voices on the staff with their corresponding fret numbers on the
tab staff. Maybe it can do that now? How?

When you really only intend to write one voice on a staff, two staves
are not needed.  See "Juba".  Such foolproof pieces are rare, to say the
least.

http://www.openguitar.com/files/juba-short.pdf

Here is what decently (lilypond) printed music with tab looks like. If
there were three voices, could I get as good a result?

http://www.openguitar.com/files/tomdooley.pdf

The top staff shows what the music sounds like, including where the
melody is. In tab alone the melody is impossible to find by even
an accomplished banjoist unless he already is familiar with the tune.
Not good.

It used to be standard practice to write lute music in piano
notation when transcribing it. The ability to combine parts
to make a tab staff would be the best way to publish lute music, but I
think there is no software that can do it yet. (?) Lute
music that is published with tab alone is essentially a puzzle
that only those steeped in arcane 17th C. lore can decipher (or one
who finds the vocals). I don't know how long that state of affairs will
be tolerated.

I only have two uses for guitar tab:

1. In instruction, to show where the notes are to beginners:

http://www.openguitar.com/pdf/gnotes.pdf

2. Or to deal with the many variant tunings.

Regards, daveA

--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.  Very easy guitar
music, solos, duets, exercises.., To contact, visit openguitar.com

----------
From: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/24
To: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>,
andrew@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx"
<lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


I'm working on the first group of "missing" LilyPond Tab features and
it pertains to finger bends. I expect this to be a slow process. We
have two (or maybe three) individuals who have expressed interest in
joining the discussion, so when I have something, I'll send it out to
those individuals for discussion. Every once in a while, we can post
something to the main -user list, to maintain some visibility and
maybe alert new users who may be interested.

Cheers,

Dave

Grammostola Rosea wrote:
>
> Grammostola Rosea wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>
>> Already some more reactions?
>>
>> How should the default tablature displayed?
>>
>> I use this:
>> \override TabStaff.Stem #'transparent = ##t %% Makes stems transparent
>> \override TabStaff.Beam #'transparent = ##t %% Makes beams transparent
>> \override TabStaff.Dots #'transparent = ##t
>>
>> To make stems, beams and dots invisible. Should that be the default of tablature in Lilypond? If so then there should be a way to add those stems, beams and dots isn't?
>>
>> Another 'problem' are the slurs in tablature. I think you have to use \tag now to make them invisible, which is pretty time consuming...
>>
>> And polyphony? Should that be changed?
>>
>> And what about an more modern font for tablature? Should it be the default?
>> for example:
>> http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=323
>>
>> And dead notes (note with a x) are they possible with lilypond?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> \r
>>
>>
> When I open tuxguitar I see some other features for guitar and/ or bass. I dunno if they are in Lilypond:
>
> tremolo bar
> tremolo picking
> P.M. Palm Mute
> T (tapping)
> S (slapping)
> P (popping)
>
>
> \r
>
>

----------
From: Tony Willoughby <tonyw@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/2/24
To: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>, viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



I am interested in contributing financially.
--
Tony Willoughby    tonyw@xxxxxxxxx
"We are approaching GA asymptotically"
-L.C. February 10, 1995
----------
From: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/2
To: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>,
andrew@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx"
<lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


2009/2/24 David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
You'd better post on the bug list, so I don't miss these.

I am generally happy to add feature requests to our tracker, the only
rule being: be precise, be concrete, and be concise. Here are some
examples:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=703
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=461
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=686

Tony: throwing in some money may not help. If you offer, instead, to
help test and document the implementation, that would be much more
appreciated.

That being said, as always, I am willing to personally double whatever
fee can be raised.

Regards,
Valentin

----------
From: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/5
To: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, andrew@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx"
<lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Valentin Villenave wrote:

I like to help with testing Kind offer!

\r

----------
From: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/19
To: David Stocker <dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>, viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Some progress here David & co. ?

Ps/ thanks for your offer to help and test Marc!
----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/21
To: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>, viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


[Sorry, the attached eps was too big; I converted it to png]

I have a wishlist of features for the tablature and guitar _notation_
feature request.
I don't know how far the work on the features has gone, so I post to the
list:

(1) writing muted notes (i.e. dead notes) is already possible, but
rather complicated
and - what's more important - different for notes and tablature.

I can define

#(define (x-tab-format str context event)
   (make-whiteout-markup
     (make-vcenter-markup
       (markup #:musicglyph "noteheads.s2cross"))))

headXOn  = \override NoteHead #'style = #'cross
headXOff = \override NoteHead #'style = #'default

tabXOn = \set tablatureFormat = #x-tab-format
tabXOff = \unset tablatureFormat

and use it to switch between crossed note heads (or crosses for tab
numbers respectively),
but if I write some funky chord lines with lots of muted strings, the
lilypond file gets
complicated to read. I could use shorter commands, but that does not
solve the problem.

Would it be too difficult to extend the parser, so that I could simply write

c8 xc8 c xc

to get my dead notes both in a normal Staff and a TabStaff?

(2) When I write a score with notes and additional tablature, I don't
need the stems and stuff,
so it would be good to have a \tabNumbersOnly-Feature which
automatically switches to the
desired output. But in cases where I have only tablature, there is a
problem with durations >=2.
I have a workaround with

#(define (nonr-tab-format str context event)
     (make-vcenter-markup
       (markup #:musicglyph "space")))
% I don't know whether this is a good definition, but it works.
% I simply copied the definition from above and replaced the cross by a
space,
% which doesn't need a white-out

tabNrOff = \set tablatureFormat = #nonr-tab-format
tabNrOn = \unset tablatureFormat

to remove the number and draw only the stem manually, but I think it
would be easier for me if
lilypond does the job. Attached is an example to clarify the situation
(it is the intro of
"My lover is" by Chris deBurgh, by the way).

Best wishes

Marc

PS: I have some ideas/wishes for handling bendings,
but it would be interesting to see how far David has come
with his ideas/feature requests.





_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@xxxxxxx
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


----------
From: Carl D. Sorensen <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/21
To: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>, Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


How about
x = #(define-music-function (parser location note) (ly:music?)
#{
 \once \override NoteHead #'style = #'cross
 $note
 \unset tablatureFormat
#})

music = {
 c8 \x c c \x c c4 c4
}

<<
 \new Staff {
   \clef "treble_8"
   \music
 }
 \new TabStaff {
   \music
tabNumbersOnly = {
 \override TabVoice.Stem #'transparent = ##t
 \override TabVoice.Beam #'transparent = ##t
}

tabNumbersAndStems = {
 \revert TabVoice.Stem #'transparent
 \revert TabVoice.Beam #'transparent
There's been some discussion about this.  Dana Emery has some
suggestions, and there are others who have other proposals.

HTH,

Carl

----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/22
To: "Carl D. Sorensen" <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>,
"viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>


Carl, thanks for your answer.

Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:
This is a good solution; it's easy and fast to write, readable and
leaves the parsing routine untouched. Yes, I knew that already. I
mentioned it because I hope that there will be an additional file
(tablature.ly) shipped with future versions of lilypond with some
predefined commands
like these two. (By the way, tuplets and tuplet numbers should be
handled properly, too). That sounds interesting - where can I find
these suggestions?

Marc
----------
From: Carl D. Sorensen <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/23
To: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>,
"viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <viktor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>


You're welcome.
A better definition of x would be

x = #(define-music-function (parser location notes) (ly:music?)
     #{
        $notes
        \unset tablatureFormat
        \revert NoteHead #'style
     #})

This version allows you to call

\x {c4 c c c}

if you want to have lots of notes muted.
I assume that this will happen when tablature is updated.  As far as I know,
nobody is yet planning to do the work on tablature.  They are only planning
to put in the requests.

I'd be happy to have a Frog (even a new Frog, like you, Marc, if you're
interested or willing) take responsibility for tablature. I'd give any
advice that I could, and you'd have access to help from the lilypond-devel
list for those things that are beyond me.
Search lilypond-user archives and lilypond-devel archives for posts from
danalute, and then follow the threads.

----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/23
To: "Carl D. Sorensen" <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Yes, that's even better :-) Hm, I think if everyone waits until
someone else is doing the job, we'll have to be patient :-)
Can you explain to me what a "Frog" is (and what he has to do)?
I don't know much about scheme and the lilypond internals (yet?),
but I am willing to spend some time in bringing this project further on,
because the lack of specific tablature features is the main reason for
me not using lilypond for every piece of music I write down.

Marc
----------
From: Carl D. Sorensen <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/23
To: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Frogs are LilyPond programmers in training.  The name comes from creatures
who live in the pond and hunt bugs.

You can read more about Frogs by searching the lilypond-devel mailing list
for Frog:

<http://search.gmane.org/search.php?group=gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.devel&quer
y=Frog>

You can also see some Frog instructions by searching the archives of the
frogs@xxxxxxxxxxx mailing list:

<http://listengine.tuxfamily.org/lilynet.net/frogs/2009/01/threads.html>


Specific instructions for contributing to LilyPond are found in the new
Contributors' Guide of the documentation:

<http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/devel/index>


HTH,

Carl

----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/23
To: "Carl D. Sorensen" <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:
So I am not going to be painted green and got balloon-like cheeks? Great.

I will give it a try.

Marc
----------
From: Carl D. Sorensen <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/23
To: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>, Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>



Valentin,

Will you please add Marc to the Frogs?

Thanks,

Carl


------ Forwarded Message
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:09:45 -0600
To: "Carl D. Sorensen" <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Cc: <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>
Conversation: guitar tab feature request
Subject: Re: guitar tab feature request

----------
From: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/24
To: "Carl D. Sorensen" <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>
Cc: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>


2009/3/23 Carl D. Sorensen <c_sorensen@xxxxxxx>:
Done.

Welcome on board, Marc!

Regards,
Valentin

----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/3/25
To: Valentin Villenave <v.villenave@xxxxxxxxx>


Valentin Villenave schrieb: Thank you! I will do my best...

Marc
>
> Regards,
> Valentin
>
>

----------
From: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/4/10
To:
Cc: "lilypond-user@xxxxxxx" <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Hi guys,

Some  progress on the tablature side of Lilypond? I'm looking forward to it ;)

Have an nice weekend.

\r
----------
From: Marc Hohl <marc@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2009/4/11
To: Grammostola Rosea <rosea.grammostola@xxxxxxxxx>, David Stocker
<dstocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Lilypond-User <lilypond-user@xxxxxxx>


Grammostola Rosea schrieb: David is collecting the desired features,
but I don't know how far he has come ...

David, if I can help you in any way, don't hesitate, just tell me what to do.

> Have an nice weekend.
>
Thank you, happy easter!

Marc
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